The Gaming Den

FrankTrollman wrote: About the only thing you would ever want to maybe include is to allow people to specifically search an area - giving them a bonus to notice people sneaking in that area (and probably a penalty to notice people sneaking around elsewhere). But a character could jolly well focus on some area while walking in another direction entirely. Heads turn, you know.

-Username17

Nobody but you is talking about having cone of vision locked to your frontal arc like a guard in a stealth shooter, so you can keep your condescending horseshit to yourself.

They're not?

I keep hearing about 'sneaking up when the guard's back is turned'.

If you make your stealth check and you're successful, the guard's head WAS turned. If you make your stealth check and you fail, the guard happened to look before you did more than peek around the corner.

It's like an attack roll. The player might describe what they're DOING, but rolling the dice determines how it actually works.

If the player says 'I drop to a knee and shove my blade up below his armored kilt' I don't give him a bonus on the attack roll or damage - I figure he's always aiming for the least protected bits, and if it rolls as a hit, I describe the result of the hit appropriately.

If the player says, 'I sneak up when he turns away', I have him roll and describe the results based on the roll.

The only problem is that there appears to be a number of people that want to say 'you can't use stealth because the guard is looking down the empty corridor' which is crap, and there is another group of people that seem to think they should get some kind of bonus if they wait for some kind of MTP bullshit. If both those groups just allow the dice to resolve the action, there isn't really a problem.

You absolutely should get bonuses for MTP bullshit. You get attack bonuses if you wait until a guard is lying down, and minor bonuses for MTPing them into flat-footedness. Similarly, you can MTP a guard into leaving his post or distract him.

fectin wrote:You absolutely should get bonuses for MTP bullshit. You get attack bonuses if you wait until a guard is lying down, and minor bonuses for MTPing them into flat-footedness. Similarly, you can MTP a guard into leaving his post or distract him.

Attack bonuses for whether a guard is lying down is not MTP. That's, um, in the rules. Hence, it is not MTP - by definition, even.

deaddmwalking wrote:They're not?

I keep hearing about 'sneaking up when the guard's back is turned'.

If you make your stealth check and you're successful, the guard's head WAS turned. If you make your stealth check and you fail, the guard happened to look before you did more than peek around the corner.

Yeah, but you don't have to track facing as a cone of vision that locks in on your turn, or any such thing. You could just have a rule for how long you can move through someone's unobscured line of sight without being automatically detected (probably one turn, enough to run from cover to cover.)

But then the player might say, "well, this room only has one door, I stare intently at that fucking door" which makes it a dick move to let anything not actually invisible walk through that door undetected. So you want a Focused Attention rule that allows people to train their vision one area (making it very difficult or impossible to move through that area) at the expense of being unaware of anything happening anywhere else. Kind of like that thing Frank was talking about.

Problem is, I'm assuming the 3e combat engine here; you can't make the same assumptions in a game where the combat engine doesn't exist yet.

The only problem is that there appears to be a number of people that want to say 'you can't use stealth because the guard is looking down the empty corridor' which is crap, and there is another group of people that seem to think they should get some kind of bonus if they wait for some kind of MTP bullshit. If both those groups just allow the dice to resolve the action, there isn't really a problem.

If you wanted, you could write pretty simple rules for that. Assume the Focused Attention rule above. You could make that implicit in certain types of non-combat actions - for example, anyone anyone interacting with a specific creature/object in way that requires a skill or class ability has their attention focused in the direction of that creature or object.* If you're studying your spellbook, interrogating a prisoner, or picking a lock you're only paying attention in the direction of the target.

*E: I meant this to only apply to things that take longer than a combat action, but I accidentally deleted that part.

You could also set a rule that when no one is explicitly dictating a character's round-to-round actions, it focuses its attention somewhere useless for 1d6 rounds every 1d6x10 minutes. So instead of "waiting for MTP bullshit" to gank the guard when he goes to piss off the battlements, you're waiting a defined (but random and secret) amount of time and gaining a defined benefit.

I don't think a stealth system has to have something like that to be decent, but it might help satisfy the people who want the stealth rules to flow naturally from the action as described.

NineInchNall wrote:

fectin wrote:You absolutely should get bonuses for MTP bullshit. You get attack bonuses if you wait until a guard is lying down, and minor bonuses for MTPing them into flat-footedness. Similarly, you can MTP a guard into leaving his post or distract him.

Attack bonuses for whether a guard is lying down is not MTP. That's, um, in the rules. Hence, it is not MTP - by definition, even.

Well spotted. Glad we can agree on that.

The waiting part is MTP though, so your point is moot.

The bonuses don't come from the waiting, though, so your point is pointless.

So, there's a rules effect which makes them prone then?

fectin wrote:So, there's a rules effect which makes them prone then?

Are you seriously bitching that 3.5 doesn't have a rule that says people have to lie down to rest?

-Username17

What, you mean your characters didn't sleep standing up?

Saves you a move action!

Noobs these days.

Facing someone or even observing someone leading to autofailure on stealth is total bullshit. If you want to make it so that spotting someone walking down an empty hallway is easier than sneaking past someone in an empty hallway, then adjust the DCs so that this is generically the case for two people of equal skill. Proposing otherwise makes stage magic impossible.

I think it would be better to just limit the amount of time you can remain in someone's area of observation without being detected. For basic non-phlebotinum-assisted stealth (low level rogue stuff, pre-Invisibility or weeabooshadowbullshit), ninja rolling from cover to cover is cool, standing out in the open for multiple rounds is dissociative and lame.

And stage magic is about using props to gain cover or concealment. Flash Powder doesn't let you hide while observed, it makes a cloud in which people can't observe you. Likewise the boss of the Mirror Dungeon uses the mirrors in his lair to gain concealment without the audience realizing it.

ModelCitizen wrote:I think it would be better to just limit the amount of time you can remain in someone's area of observation without being detected. For basic non-phlebotinum-assisted stealth (low level rogue stuff, pre-Invisibility or weeabooshadowbullshit), ninja rolling from cover to cover is cool, standing out in the open for multiple rounds is dissociative and lame.

And stage magic is about using props to gain cover or concealment. Flash Powder doesn't let you hide while observed, it makes a cloud in which people can't observe you. Likewise the boss of the Mirror Dungeon uses the mirrors in his lair to gain concealment without the audience realizing it.

Stage magic does lots of things. And one of the things it does is to draw attention to one hand while a quick movement is done with the other. Left hand distractions are not concealment. Or cover. Or any of that jazz. They are just an example of the fact that the eye can't respond to something as fast as the hand can move.

The reality is that limits on hiding while in line of sight are stupid. Because there are so many real world examples of things actually doing exactly that sort of thing that what you're left with is that anyone who is even passably good at stealth or sleight of hand must necessarily enjoy some sort of special rule. And then we're back to the 4e bullshit where taking hostages is a special rule in one of the bugbear monster entries rather than a consistent thing that works in some standard fashion.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:

fectin wrote:So, there's a rules effect which makes them prone then?

Are you seriously bitching that 3.5 doesn't have a rule that says people have to lie down to rest?

-Username17

No.

I said that you can MTP waiting until a guard is prone or taking a leak or whatever (MTP because there are no rules for when it happens), and get bonuses to attack based on that. This is right and proper.

Likewise, I assert that it is right and proper to MTP waiting until a guard Is distracted to get a bonus to your sneaking.

The answer I got was that waiting until the guard lies down is somehow a rules effect. That was news to me, thus my question.

Edit: I'm pretty sure we're actually on the same page here.

fectin wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:

fectin wrote:So, there's a rules effect which makes them prone then?

Are you seriously bitching that 3.5 doesn't have a rule that says people have to lie down to rest?

-Username17

No.

I said that you can MTP waiting until a guard is prone or taking a leak or whatever (MTP because there are no rules for when it happens), and get bonuses to attack based on that. This is right and proper.

Likewise, I assert that it is right and proper to MTP waiting until a guard Is distracted to get a bonus to your sneaking.

The answer I got was that waiting until the guard lies down is somehow a rules effect. That was news to me, thus my question.

Edit: I'm pretty sure we're actually on the same page here.

MTP bonuses can work if you are in game waiting for a certain condition or situation to take place, i.e. waiting for the guard to change and the shifts to co-mingle and start gabbing and shifting around before you sneak over the wall. Done right it can add to the game and may grant a bonus.

Otherwise the roll should be the arbiter of all those factors that no one should own. For example, no one wants to play with the asshole who can't understand why his brilliantly simple cave mouth guillotine didn't remove the elder dragon's head automatically and bitches endlessly about how the GM doesn't like him. Likewise no one wants to play with the GM that is continuously shutting you down and countering your every idea and action based on seemingly arbitrary details of a world that exists in his head.

So we abstract all that shit with rolls. When the rules that govern those rolls make no fucking sense the player thinks the GM doesn't like him or understand the game and the GM thinks the players are either inept or trying to get away with shit. In truth it's the designers who don't fucking get it, and that's why they need to start with the fucking math and hang the fluff on that.

Bones give you the shape, the flesh... well, fleshes it out. Go the other way around and you end up with horrible abominations that die at the development stage or these Elephant Man looking games that most gamers and too polite or too stupid to say anything about.

Also for the record I'm telling the GM my characters sleep standing up now. That move action can make all the difference in a late night encounter.

fectin wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:

fectin wrote:So, there's a rules effect which makes them prone then?

Are you seriously bitching that 3.5 doesn't have a rule that says people have to lie down to rest?

-Username17

No.

I said that you can MTP waiting until a guard is prone or taking a leak or whatever (MTP because there are no rules for when it happens), and get bonuses to attack based on that. This is right and proper.

Likewise, I assert that it is right and proper to MTP waiting until a guard Is distracted to get a bonus to your sneaking.

The answer I got was that waiting until the guard lies down is somehow a rules effect. That was news to me, thus my question.

Edit: I'm pretty sure we're actually on the same page here.

That's not MTP. That's your problem.

It is not MTP to stay undetected for a period of time. It's not MTP for a guard to go to sleep.

Neither of those is MTP. There are rules for staying undetected. There are rules for sleeping. Those are not MTP.

FrankTrollman wrote: Stage magic does lots of things. And one of the things it does is to draw attention to one hand while a quick movement is done with the other. Left hand distractions are not concealment. Or cover. Or any of that jazz. They are just an example of the fact that the eye can't respond to something as fast as the hand can move.

That's Sleight of Hand, not stealth. Of course you should be able to use Sleight of Hand while directly observed, that's the whole point, but you can't conceal yourself with a left hand distraction. If you wanted Sleight of Hand and Stealth to use identical rules, any rule that lets you stay hidden long enough to move from cover to cover while potentially observed would let you act long enough to palm a gem or stuff a rabbit in your hat or whatever.

About your toad that looks like a dead leaf, humans can't do that, and that toad can't do it anywhere but its natural environment. The toad has a special ability to gain concealment just from being in a forest. It's probably called Camouflage and it's already a thing. (Why rangers have to wait so damn long to get it, I don't know.)

When I think of stealth, I always think of the scene in Star Wars where Ben Keobi needs to turn off the tractor beam. He needs to cross a bridge over an impossibly deep chasm with no cover, and two Storm Troopers keeping an eye out for anything suspicious.

Since they're humans, they're not 'eyes locked forward', but they're alert and attentive. A small sound (ghost sound cantrip?) distracts them for a short moment, but it's just enough to slip past and to a position of full cover.

No matter how much the PCs want to say 'I watch the door and I don't take my eyes off of it for any reason', we know that they wouldn't actually do it. A sound, a shadow, even a feeling of being watched are all legitimate reasons to turn away from the watched door - even if for only a half second, but for someone really skilled in stealth, that's all they need.

And let's face it - playing the 'it's impossible to sneak past' card is usually something the DM/GM does. They're the ones who designed the corridor with a single door and are positing that a group of chaotic monsters are all standing at attention on full alert for an entire 8 hour shift. As long as the DM lets people roll, we're probably fine...

The problem, such as it is, is that it hurts suspension of disbelief to pretend that hiding is 'just as easy' as noticing something. It's a fundamental problem of 'skill ranks' - trying to compare how they should work. Most people are better at 'seeing things' then they are at 'hiding'. So sneaking across an empty corridor should be at a significant penalty. So if sneaking normally requires cover/concealment, it should be a -10 or -20 if you don't have it. But if you have +28 in Sneak, maybe you don't care.

ModelCitizen wrote: About your toad that looks like a dead leaf, humans can't do that, and that toad can't do it anywhere but its natural environment.

Paint should not be an epic-level item.

Go right ahead and tell us how awesome and observant you are with this test. Just because you have a huge eye-penis, does not mean the entire game universe can trivially never fail to notice who's freakin' trained at hiding, especially since a very large non-zero number of people did fail the above test.

I really wish I could find a version of this guide where the pictures still worked, but it's a good RL guide to hiding in plain sight. There's a reason we have a trope referring Failing your Spot check, and it shouldn't be the province of mid-level rogues.

Chamomile wrote:

ModelCitizen wrote: About your toad that looks like a dead leaf, humans can't do that, and that toad can't do it anywhere but its natural environment.

Paint should not be an epic-level item.

Nor should military camouflage.

ModelCitizen wrote:That's Sleight of Hand, not stealth. Of course you should be able to use Sleight of Hand while directly observed, that's the whole point, but you can't conceal yourself with a left hand distraction.

That's an artificial distinction. There's no abstract principle that states that 'moving your appendages in a cloying and fast way so people can't spot what you're doing' is a completely separate sphere from 'moving your entire body in a cloying and fast way so that people can't spot what you're doing'.

The reason why magic tricks are easier than sneaking by a hallway is because the human hand is smaller (bonus to stealth due to size) and because it can be moved faster than the entire body (bonus to stealth due to dexterity/speed). Furthermore reason why skullduggery tends to be its own separate skill is because most TTRPGs revolve around the medium-sized opposable thumbs humanoid scale and having a specific bonus just for moving one part of your body would be too much math.

tl;dr: I find the idea that Andre the Giant should not auto-fail a Sleight of Hand check just because he's being observed but a mouse should auto-fail a hide check to be dissonant and laughable.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

ModelCitizen wrote:That's Sleight of Hand, not stealth. Of course you should be able to use Sleight of Hand while directly observed, that's the whole point, but you can't conceal yourself with a left hand distraction.

That's an artificial distinction. There's no abstract principle that states that 'moving your appendages in a cloying and fast way so people can't spot what you're doing' is a completely separate sphere from 'moving your entire body in a cloying and fast way so that people can't spot what you're doing'.

Yes there is. It's called distraction.

I can move my right hand so you miss my left hand because you are paying attention to my right hand.

I cannot move my body in such a way that you miss it because you are paying attention to my body. That's stupid.

Now, if we just let rogues cast ghost sound at will then we never have to have the facing conversation.

Kaelik wrote: Now, if we just let rogues cast ghost sound at will then we never have to have the facing conversation.

Or you know... throw rocks and other small objects. That might work too.



-Username17

Well, there are already rules for creating a distraction while hiding using Bluff:

Hide wrote:Creating a Diversion to Hide

You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

Of course, the downside to this is you have to maintain yet another skill in order to be good at stealth. Sadly, even though it's opposed by a third skill, even if you fail your Sense Motive check, you still get a Spot check to see the guy, so he has to beat two checks to actually hide (three if he has to Move Silently). Yay for iterative probability and people never actually being able to hide 7 out of 8 times.

FrankTrollman wrote:

Kaelik wrote: Now, if we just let rogues cast ghost sound at will then we never have to have the facing conversation.

Or you know... throw rocks and other small objects. That might work too.

:roll:

-Username17

That's MTP bullshit, apparently.